Community concern about cashless debit card expansion
Linda Burney on ABC Weekend Breakfast - Saturday, 5 December 2020
FAUZIAH IBRAHIM, CO-HOST: We are now joined by Liberal MP Trent Zimmerman and Labor MP Linda Burney, who is the Shadow Minister for Social Services. Welcome to you both to Weekend Breakfast. This is a really interesting revamp of the IR policies. And one thing that really stood out for me is that the employers will now have an easier time to be able to move casual staff on to more permanent staff. Linda, of course, this really addresses an issue that had been highlighted during the pandemic, the issue of job insecurity, would you be in support of this?
LINDA BURNEY: job insecurity is a major, major issue. And you're absolutely right with that. The shadow cabinet and the caucus is still to discuss. And we need to go through our processes of looking at this legislation. But I make the point Fauziah, that this has been an ideological obsession of Christian Porter and the government for a long time in terms of breaking up the unions. And of course, that's a really important point. So Labor will look closely at the legislation and we'll make our decisions, obviously, on Monday, when shadow cabinet does meet. And then Tuesday morning, when caucus does meet. I have to say, just in closing to those comments that the union movement is important to the Labor Party. And obviously this legislation is important to the party as well.
KATHRYN ROBINSON, CO-HOST: Trent would like to get your thoughts on it. I mean, it's been reported in the papers today that the bill would give employers power, as we just mentioned earlier, to change employees’ hours, duties and location of work as well as offering those extra hours to workers. But without overtime rates. I mean, does that sound fair? Or is this prioritising employers over employees?
TRENT ZIMMERMAN: Well I’d make a couple of points. Firstly, the Attorney General hasn't actually released the legislation that we're talking about yet. And so it's probably just mildly premature to be speculating about what might be in that. But that's likely to come this week. So we'll have a clearer picture for the community to review during the course of the next five days. But what is important, and what has really been guiding the government's approach is obviously the monumental task of getting Australians back into work that have been affected by the pandemic. And that has guided the flexibility arrangements that were put in place early in the pandemic. But it's also important that we do work cooperatively with all parts of the workforce and employers. And that's why the Attorney General has been working through the five groups that he established to bring all the parties together. And I think that's probably going to be a really productive process that's guided the outcomes that we'll see this week. And it is important, I think that when he does release the draft legislation or the legislation and table it in parliament this week that people do come to it with an open mind and try to avoid being in the trenches in the way that sometimes to provide industrial relations debate before then. But first and foremost, we need to be thinking about what is best about getting Australians back into work.
IBRAHIM: IInteresting, of course, you know, the government has been pushing that there is a need to get to make sure that the IR legislation or policies are a lot more flexible in order to boost employment in Australia. But Linda, ACTU secretary, Sally McManus, has indicated her tacit support of this outline of this particular bill. She did however, highlight that there's a need even though employers will have more power, there's a need to ensure that workers’ rights aren't robbed. Is that a concern that you also share?
BURNEY: Um, yes, it is. And I've got enormous respect for Sally McManus and her leadership at the ACTU. Clearly at the heart of this and what must be put in front of mind, I'm sure that Trent would agree with me on this one, is the rights of workers. I mean, we've seen the rights of workers being chipped away and there are over a million people unemployed, which I'm sure we'll get to in this discussion. But the rights of workers cannot be diminished in these negotiations, and with the decisions that are taken in relation to this piece of legislation. I take on board, what Trent has said about Christian Porter, releasing the legislation this week. But this is not the first time Christian Porter has expressed a very strong view about his view about the union movement. And if behind this is breaking up the union movement and diminishing the rights of workers and that's a very serious consideration for everyone involved.
ROBINSON: Well, as Trent said, we will have to wait to see what the Attorney General announces this week with the bill. If we can move on to another issue to the welfare or the cashless card. This week, the Morison Government is looking to pass legislation that will make certain trial states around the country in Western Australia, South Australia and Queensland permanent and transfer a group of I think around 20,000 people in the Northern Territory from the Basics card to the cashless debit card program. Trent coalition backbencher Bridget Archer has said that she thinks that this card is harmful and punitive. She's spoken out against this obviously, what do you think, what are your thoughts on this card? Do you support it? Does it work? And what's the evidence to suggest it does?
ZIMMERMAN: Well, I think that this legislation is important and it is important to stress a couple of things. Firstly, the legislation does not extend the cashless debit card to new parts of Australia or new welfare recipients it really is about doing two things. It's about allowing the cashless debit card to continue in those locations where there's been trials for the last couple of years, but also converting those that are on the Basics card in the Northern Territory and Cape York to the cashless debit card. And that's because this is a better scheme than the old Basics card which has been in place since 2007 gives, people more options to spend their money across Australia and it is a better system. But what drives this is in the areas where the cashless of debit card and income management has been used, traditionally, with the support of the Labor Party, I might add is that is that there are areas where there are entrenched problems, and we have to look at new ways to address those problems. So sitting back and trying mechanisms that have just continued to fail is not very sensible. And what we have seen where the trials have taken place, and there's been over a dozen evaluation reports now, is evidence that we have seen drops in the rates of alcohol use, drug use, violence, and better income management by those people who have been part of the trials. So I think it is important that we give the government the opportunity to continue the cashless debit card in those communities.
ROBINSON: Just before we head to Linda on that, just to pick up on a point that you made at the very beginning. They're saying that it won't be extended to other areas. That was one of the concerns of that coalition backbencher that I mentioned before Bridget Archer that the program will be expanded to people in her area in Tasmania where she is, can you can guarantee that it won't be rolled out throughout other parts of Australia?
ZIMMERMAN: Well, this legislation is very clear. It's about the four places that were subject to the cashless debit card trial. And it's also about moving those that were on income management through the Basics card in the Northern Territory and the Cape York to the cashless debit card, because we think it's a better, more sophisticated, more advanced approach than the Basics card which was put in place by the Howard Government and expanded by Jenny Macklin when she was the minister.
IBRAHIM: Linda, you've been an outspoken critic of this policy of the cashless debit card. There have been several studies done on the efficacy of this particular policy. And I suppose it depends on who commissioned this study as to whether it is a success or not. What is your main objection to the card?
BURNEY: Well, Trent, quite frankly, is wrong on a couple of the facts that he's just expressed, and I understand what he has to say what he has just said. What was stunning to me, was the decision to make the trial sites permanent, and the decision to move 23,000 people in the Northern Territory from the Basics card to the cashless debit card was done in absence of any proper evaluation. The government commissioned an evaluation of $2.5 million and the minister as Senate estimates admitted she made the decision in and had not read the evaluation. A recent evaluation between Adelaide University and Monash University looked at Ceduna did not find any improvements and successive evaluations have demonstrated that mandatory, now I stress, that mandatory income management does not work. It doesn't work in Australia and it hasn't worked in other parts of the world. And that is my main objection, is the mandatory nature of the trial sites becoming permanent, and the mandatory nature of 23,000 people in the Territory, not having a say about what card that they're on. Labor will oppose this as long as there is breath in the Labor Party, because it tramples individual rights, it tramples human rights, and it tramples any notion of social justice. It is hearsay and only hearsay, that says that this card is making a difference in the areas that Trent has, has articulated. Now very quickly. The cold hard politics of these is that the cashless debit card has been listed in the Senate for early on Monday morning. The failure of this piece of legislation, or the success of this piece of legislation now rests with one independent crossbencher, that being Rex Patrick, he is spending tomorrow in Ceduna to make his final decision about this particular piece of legislation. So I finish off by saying that the mandatory nature of this card is my main objection, it tramples the rights of people, and quite frankly, is structurally racist, because it affects more First Nations people, in fact, 83% in the Territory than everyone else.
ROBINSON: Just before we go, we are almost out of time. Trent just wanted to get your thoughts on this week, the government indicated a shift on the carryover credits, the Kyoto protocols there that perhaps they won't use those carryover credits in future to reach emissions, why the change in policy, what's behind that?
ZIMMERMAN: Well, Australia is performing very well in meeting its targets. And we saw that with our 2020 targets being met, and in fact, exceeded so well, but the PM obviously is yet to announce a formal change in approach. But he obviously flagged that if the government can get to 2030 without using carryover credits, then that would be a good thing. And I agree with that view. If we can get to meet our 26% reduction targets by 2030 and not use carryover credits, then I think that would be a great outcome for Australia. And we did have positive news this week, we've seen emissions dropped by 16.6% over the 2005 baseline year, they're now at their lowest level since 1998. But we know that if we get to get to net zero as we should, then it's going to be a whole lot of more work that we have to do over the next 10 and 30 years. And I think that if we head towards 2030, confident that we don't need to use carryover credits, and that's going to make the longer-term objective of net zero a lot easier, and that that would be a fantastic outcome.
IBRAHIM: Trent, it does seem quite convenient, though. This pivot comes at a time when there is a change in the White House in the United States as well. We have a president elect Joe Biden there who has promised to be the first green president in the United States. He has made climate change policies front and centre of his administration, how much is the pressure from the United States, from the UK and from everywhere else in the world, changing the Coalition's view on this carryover credits and also the policies going forward, in regards to climate change?
ZIMMERMAN: Well, I think it's actually fantastic that President Elect Biden has committed the US to rejoining the Paris Agreement, though, they'll probably have a little bit of catch up to do, because they've been effectively out for the last four years. But what excites me is that I think that there are huge opportunities for Australia, to use our technological progress, great science, to really join those global efforts to deploy new technologies bring our emissions down. And that's not only good for meeting our emissions reduction targets, but I actually think it's going to be great for the Australian economy, because we know that in all these areas be it hydrogen, be it battery, be it new renewables, the list goes on and on. There are massive economic opportunities for Australia, if we're able to ride that wave, and that's why things like the Technology Roadmap are going to be really important over the next decade. But there are both that's the silver lining to the cloud of climate change, because we can actually make our economy stronger by pursuing some of these technological solutions and, and working with countries like the United States to do that. And we're already seeing great partnerships being developed on hydrogen, for example, with countries like Germany and Japan. And that's hopefully just going to continue.
ROBINSON: Trent and Linda as always, it's great to have you on Weekend Breakfast, and if we don't see you before the New Year, hope you have a fantastic break. Thank you.
BURNEY: Thank you.
ZIMMERMAN: Merry Christmas.
BURNEY: Merry Christmas.
LINDA BURNEY
TRANSCRIPT - SATURDAY, 5 DECEMBER 2020