More Government MPs express concern about Cashless Debit Card
Linda Burney on ABC RN Drive with Patricia Karvelas - Thursday, 3 December 2020
PATRICIA KARVELAS, HOST: Linda Burney, welcome.
LINDA BURNEY: Hello, how are you Patricia?
KARVELAS:Lovely to be joined by you. Were you surprised by Bridget Archer’s criticisms of this program?
BURNEY: I was surprised. I watched her speech very carefully. I thought it was a very good and well-crafted speech. At the end of it she did say that she would vote for the legislation because there's nothing else on the table. But I think that what she expressed and what's becoming obvious is that she's not the only person in the government that feels the way that she does about this card.
KARVELAS: Victorian Liberal MP Russel Broadbent has also criticised the scheme but also won't vote against what do you make of that?
BURNEY: Well, he says it's not something that he would cross the floor on. I've read that article. I think it was in the Australian just this afternoon. I've known Russell for a long time, and he's a very fair and decent person. It just is the structural racial component of this, that has really fired up a number of people in the Labor side. And Labor will be as you know, Patricia, opposing the attempt to make that four trial sites permanent and the automatic switch of 23,000 people in the Territory oon to the card.
KARVELAS: The government says it's been asked by communities in the trial sites to make the card permanent. What are people in those places telling you?
BURNEY: Well, they're not telling me that they want the card permanent. In fact, I've had quite the opposite reaction, particularly when - will I've been to all the trial sites bar the Goldfields. I was very moved by what I heard from young, young, non-Indigenous women, single mums who were just doing a magnificent job, and the indignity and the shame that came with the fact that they're on the card. And I think Bridget Archer also expressed that last night where she talked about welfare. So it seems to me, Patricia, that, you know, Labor has always said that we do not oppose, and we will not will not disagree with people who voluntarily put their hand up. But what astounded me is that the government made these decisions about permanency before reading their own commissioned evaluation. And that, to me, is pretty irresponsible, actually.
KARVELAS: Why do you think the government hasn't released the results of the independent review done by the University of Adelaide?
BURNEY: Because I believe that the results probably do not fit in with the narrative that the government wants to pursue, and that is somehow or rather mandatory welfare management is working. But what we've seen from the Monash and Adelaide University review into the Ceduna site, it's not had no effect on hospitalizations,;it's had no effect on the issue of alcohol. In fact, I know that that one of the senators, that's very important to this, was able to buy beer just last week in the Northern Territory using his card.
KARVELAS: 80% of those in the NT who'd move on to this card are Indigenous, so are 60% of those in the trial sites. Do you believe that this is a racist piece of legislation?
BURNEY: I describe it as structurally racist. And the reason – the very facts that you've just outlined Patricia the percentage of people that First Nations people that will be affected by mandatory income management and that is, of course particularly real in the Cape, and it's also very real in East Kimberley, Ceduna, and especially, as you say, throughout the Northern Territory, so you can't describe it as any other way except structural racism. And what just astounds me is that people think it's okay to implement mandatory income management on people that don't want it, on people that are managing their affairs, absolutely, well, on the amount of money and the regimes that they find themselves in. So it seems to me that mandatory income management is a failure, it's proven to be a failure, and it’s failing these communities.
KARVELAS: So does that mean, you can say that Labor’s also failed, because income management has also been part of the policy framework of Labor governments.
BURNEY: It has been part of the policy framework of Labor governments, albeit be many changes to the original regime that was bought in through the intervention in the Northern Territory by the then-minister, Mal Brough. I don't deny that. But I know that Jenny Macklin bought about many changes to it, including the demand for wrap-around services. What I can say now, Patricia, is that Labor is firmly opposed to mandatory income management. And that is, that is what you're seeing play
out.
KARVELAS: But we know that some people in these communities want income management, we know this, we've got particularly women elders as you know, have talked about the way that this money is used in communities to create sort of dysfunctional situations for some of them and for their children? What's your answer to those women, particularly who say we want this?
BURNEY: My answer is that they're in you should be able to, to have it, which is why Labor has the position, if it's voluntary, that is a very different kettle of fish from mandatory. And if people really want it, if people are absolutely clear, it's what they want, then that's what they should be able to have, which is why we advocate a voluntary code, which is much more effective than mandatory application, because there are assumptions made by those think mandatory is okay. And they're not okay assumptions.
KARVELAS: Look, just before I let you go on another issue, if we can just talk about those sort of vaccine that's been approved, obviously, in the UK in an emergency way, we're looking to roll out a vaccine by the end of March. That's the kind of timeframe we're looking at. There's been a conversation today, the Prime Minister raising that he's talked to Chris Bowen, about politicians volunteering to get it first to show that it's safe and that they feel comfortable with it. We know in the US that three former US presidents Barack Obama, George W. Bush, and also Bill Clinton, are volunteering to get their COVID-19 vaccines on camera in order to promote public confidence in the vaccine safety. Would you do that? Obviously, you also speak of the Indigenous Affairs space, we're going to need a lot of Indigenous Australians vaccinated to ensure they're safe, would you play that kind of role?
BURNEY: I'd be very happy to publicly get the vaccine. And I think that it's really important that people have a confidence. And if one way of giving that confidence is for members of parliament to roll their sleeves up and get the vaccine, then I'd be very happy to do it.
KARVELAS: But in the Indigenous Affairs space, you're also going to need some really high profile, I imagine Indigenous Australians doing this to want to just, you know, I've done the thinking off the top my head, I'm thinking, Cathy Freeman, I'm putting Adam Goodes on the list. I'm putting some of those amazing Indigenous Australians to say, particularly people in remote communities, we've got to do this.
BURNEY: Those two names are very obvious ones, to me, Patricia, as you're asking the question, I was actually thinking it both Kathy and Adam whom I know personally. And what's been remarkable. And you know, we've all just marvelled the way in which remote communities in particular have actually taken things into their own hands, closed their communities down and made it very difficult. And if there's a vulnerable community, as you know, Patricia, it's the First Nations community. And yes, if I can help, I'm sure Adam and Cathy put their hands up as well. If they could help, I know that they would.
KARVELAS: Linda, thanks for coming on.
BURNEY: Thanks, Patricia.
ENDS
LINDA BURNEY
TRANSCRIPT - THURSDAY, 3 DECEMBER 2020